Continuation of EU vs US DISCUSSION

"however it only shows half of the story and is flawed in many ways. GDP per capita is higher in the US, due to the fact that there are many more super rich people"

This statement is not true in the fact and I'm not sure what "super rich" means but the US population is made up of mostly middle class people around 60-70% who are not considered rich let alone super rich.

ok, that is true, but if (this is an example) 1 thousand people earning $20k per year and one person making $1billion per year, it will greatly increase the average.

Tycoon, according to that article (which was awesome, thank you!!) anyone making over 35K in the US could potentially be seen as rich in the EU :P

so give him that

zeeble, that again was just bad bad bad of you. by your numbers we would have over 30,000 billionaires here.

dude, please..come on now.

jees lee did you not see that I put "this is an example" is brackets?!! You tell me to study economics....
Anyway, that last comment goes to show how little you pretend to know about the EU, the EU is not some second word place, although some of he countries are.
I can assure that £35k in this country is not a lot at all, let a lone $35k. Where I live you will just about be able to afford a mortgage if you live on £35k per year.
Please THINK before you type.

In fact Lee, given what you have been saying, I can hardly believe that you suggested I learn economics. Please read my first post in this thread and then come back to me with a valid argument after you have formed a good opinion based on an analysis and not just your own ideas and the odd bit of information.

The GDP per capita that you see in your misguided articles as I have said before only shows half of the truth. Some of the poorer former soviet countries drag the average of say France Italy Germany etc down.

oh zeeble, I just dont know how to make this clear to you. Mr, Tycoon has given you a very relevant piece of information, you post more bs and insist it's roses..but it still smells.

Please, firstly.. try not to do your little sophmorish little rants. Firstly, anyone who read what I wrote can plainly see I said 35K is alot for Euros (and that it was a joke that that much would make you rich), your inate inability to grasp this extremely simple concept is mind boggling. However, I shall..once again.. merely laugh at you and your ignorance here.

When the EU catches up..which... as noted in the given article will be at best 15-20 years if the us sits stagnant (that means it doesn't have growth) which gives you time perhaps to actually take that class or at least, in the absolute VERY least find a teacher who's head isn't sniffing his tonsils from the wrong side, andcome back wiht a reasonable excuse as to why the US has moved on.

yes, you read that correctly, it will take 15-20 years for the EU to catch up to where the USA is TODAY.

Gees, it's almost like your angry with me that you werent born an American. And you said we have ego's lol. very laughable.

Again, I point you to Mr. Tycoons article to read, it shows you every EU country (well the major ones, it ignores the "former eastern bloc nations for the most part)... in it's economic status.

really, the more you try to speak the more ignorance on this issue and back tracking your going to have to do later..so please, do everyone a favor, save yourself and us the time and simply read it.

Lee, please refrain from making unecassery comments like the one above... there really is no need for it, IMO its gone too far. I do not appreciate being called ignorate simply because I do not agree with you.

ok, the original point that was made, was the IF the US stopped trading with the EU, then the EU would go down. However, I disagree with that, as I have said before it is NOT a question of GDP, it is more a question of trade. You will note that many EU countries trade with each other, and the US relies on the EU to buy US products, if the EU stopped being supplied by the US then EU countries would continue to trade with each other, wheras the US would lose most of its exports. US already has an incredibly bad TD which also demonstrates its dependance on produce from other countries.

Read my first post Lee in regards to the second article.....

Lee, please refrain from making unecassery comments like the one above... there really is no need for it, IMO its gone too far. I do not appreciate being called ignorate simply because I do not agree with you.

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thats the second time you've edited a post and changed what you've said, no biggy though.

listen.. I'm done. your talking with your brown donut.. it's just no use to sit here and try to explain the world when you alter your posts, ignore others evidence and deny plausability of what others say.

Have fun man.. must be interesting in your head.

edited my post? You are confusing me now Lee.

Im sorry that you couldn't have a discussion, and I am sorry that you could not remain civil simply because you disagree with me.
Im not stupid, or ignorant so please do not imply that I am.

I have not ignore others evidence, neither have I denied the plausability, I simply said that it does not show the whole truth.

Neither do I edit posts in my favour.... I have not altered any content of any of the ones here, I only edited the very first post of the thread entitled "MS in trouble" due to a grammatical error.

Anybody else care to continue a decent discussion?

Just to add to my argument:

The US shows great dependancy on foreign imports. An argument of Lee's was that the US could provide everything itself apart from OIL, the truth is very different. Of course the same goes for the EU, although the EU can provide more of its own resources.

In 2003 the GDP of the EU 25 was higher than the US, and the GDP of the EU 15 was almost as high, which goes to show how much of a difference the extra 10, most of which were poorer ex-soviet countries, make to the average GDP.

Inflation in this case fairly irrelevant as it is stable in both the US and EU.

What I find worrying from a US point of view is that the US has an incredibly high world import share (22.9%) compared to its export share of just 13.8%. You will also note that the EU is NOT in this position as it has an export share of 13.1% and an import share of just 14% showing much more self sufficiency.

When you said that it may take up to 20 years for the EU to catchup with the economy you were right, however only right in terms of GDP and IMO at this stage acheiving a high export share seems to be much more important.

IMO, on the whole we see a very healthy economy in the EU, and not quite so healthy in the US. You see you cannot just formulate all of your arguments around GDP, its like comparing Inflation or Population, you need all factors put together to formulate and argument.

Source for my argument:
http://www.eurunion.org/profile/EUUSStats.htm

If 2 nuns were feeding 38 homeless people in a soup kitchen and Bill Gates walked in the average income (or you know what I mean) would be over a billion dollars...

Zeeble-LeeRyder
C'mon dudes. This is a hot topic and all, but let's try to be a little more civil to each other and stay away from personal assessments, ie try to keep the issues distinct from judgements about ones perceptual or mental prowess. It's tough to do, but both of you have the native intelligence and level of awareness to do this. The blood pressure can get up there- I know from personal experience- but it cools down after awhile. Nobody sees everything eye to eye, disagreements are inevitable, but I know from my own experiences w/ both of you, here at NP, that neither one of you is a bad person, so disagree, but just don't lose your perspective of the big picture. My 2 C. Peace!

dude, it was really cool till he edits his posts rewriting stuff. that and he refuses to read the link provided and bases his entire argument on facts that are readily disproven in the link.

just not worth my time Grrilla, really..i appreciatte your effort here, but when someone edits what they say to something completely different, when.. it's just not worth my time lol

From what I can see, the only post zeeble edited was the original post on the other MS thread. I didn't do it, but its possible that one of the other mods (RJ or Grrilla) did do an edit on zeeble's post/s to keep the thread under control.

What exactly was edited? Don't post it here; just PM it to me please.

really, I'd just rather let him wallow in his self found glory. I dont want to do this anymore..it's stupid to me.

if he feels editing it is to alter opinion is the way then so be it... I've added him to ignore (yay! my first ignore person!).. imo, there is just no need for me to get hung up about things like that. There are people I'd much rather waste my time with here

No, Lee. You made a direct accusation here of zeeble editing his posts, but I see no evidence of it. If you were wrong in saying that he edited his posts, then why not just fess up and say you were wrong instead of avoiding the issue? In all the NP arguments you were involved in, sometimes you were right, and sometimes you were wrong. But when you are clearly in the wrong, you never admit it. Instead, you ignore the issue completely or say you are tired of it. Exactly like you are doing now regarding this "zeeble editing his posts" issue.

As far as I know, only one person in history was right all the time, and our forebears nailed him to the cross.

excuse me armstrong? Not once have I not apologized when I was wrong... or shown to be wrong. please provide referance to that.

Heck, I even apologized earlier in this thread. I expect a link.

That said, He did edit his post. Me not wanted to draw this out and about is nothing more than not wanting to waste my time with him. If you dont see that, well.. thats life. My goal is not to impress or bias you apollo, i expect you'd know that.

however since you do press, then this post.. I cannot be held liable for in your little point thingy.

I will update this post after I take your boy off of ignore so I can copy and paste it and add/change back (to the best of my memory) what he wrote.

After that apollo, do not expect a further reply from me. your post was not only rude, but disrespectful, unlike everything I've ever been to you. As per what I see.. no further conversations need to take place after I add in his post.

**EDITED/CHANGED PORTIONS ARE IN BOLD(AGAIN, TO THE BEST OF MY MEMORY)**

jees lee did you not see that I put "this is an example" is brackets?!! You tell me to study economics....
Anyway, that last comment goes to show how little you pretend to know about the EU, the EU is not some second word place, although some of he countries are.
I can assure that £35k in this country is not a lot at all, let a lone $35k. Where I live you will just about be able to afford a mortgage if you live on £35k per year.
Please THINK before you type.

In fact Lee, given what you have been saying, I can hardly believe that you suggested I learn economics. Please read my first post in this thread and then come back to me with a valid argument after you have gotten an education andformed a good opinion based on an analysis and not just your own lies and an odd bit of information.

The GDP per capita that you see in your misguided articles as I have said before only shows half of the truth. Some of the poorer former soviet countries drag the average of say France Italy Germany etc down.

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Thats all I can recall because to me, that was the most offensive. So the stuff stinks more and more depending on how high you pile it apollo.

Now, regardless of what is said or done or wtf ever..I am done with this thread and this guy. no need for any more bs like this and from him apollo.

Lee, my post was not rude at all; all I'm doing is debating with you. (Calling people names like asshat and ignorant blowhole - now those are true insults.) I'll try to dig up some old threads for you. If I cannot find suitable proof of my impression, then you shall have my apology.

EDIT: I see. Well, his post before the edit was not half bad. His resulting post was not drastically different, and actually implies the same thing, only said in a gentler manner. I don't see how that should keep you from continuing this debate with him.

how can I pm you the proof if he or someone else removed it? you think I take screenshots of threads here? lol.

For the record, the only person I ever call an "asshat" is either myself or people not related to this forum. and lastly..thieves or other web degenerates.

I saw it posted the first time I used that term about myself and one of the mods(you???) said since I used it against myself it was ok... so long as it wasnt towards another member here.

to which I abide.

however, if me calling me names does make the forum look bad, I'll stop... I have much more family friendly terms I can use if that is truly offensive. (i've never seen someone post telling me that I wasn't an asshat..so to that..I'm not sure if it's wrong in that respect lol)

I dont want an apology apollo. I dont post for apologies or to change people.. you of all people should know that by now... I just want you to show me a time where I was wrong and ignored it or didnt aknowledge it.Albeit, most of the times where I'm wrong is by not stating something correctly (as earlier) and it "annoyed" your little buddy..so I apologized for "annoying" him.

LeeRyder said:

how can I pm you the proof if he or someone else removed it?

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The NP default is that you receive via email the replies to threads you are subscribed to. By default, any thread you post in automatically subscribes you to that thread. Did you change these settings?

The reason I *believe* zeeble made no edits is because had he done so, VB should post a timestamped note, something to the effect of " Last edited by Zeeble : 04-24-2005 at 07:08 PM." The two exceptions to this that I know are 1) if the poster edits his post *before* anyone else gets a chance to see it, and 2) if a moderator does the edit; in both cases, no edit note is posted.

"dependance on produce from other countries"

Zee please explain to me how you got this conclusion of the US dependent on produce from other countries. Also you are right about the article is only part of the story but if you step back and examine the situation in whole you would see that the US is a self sufficient country and the EU is made up of several countries pulling together to become self sufficient. My argument in this whole discussion is that if the US and EU stopped all trade with each other that the EU would suffer the most affects between the two. The EU if I remember has 25 member states (countries) pulling together, the big picture is that the whole idea behind the EU is to be more like the US but not the US. First of all I am glad that the European countries are planning smarter and looking toward the future. The thing is the US is here and the EU is trying to get here, it is going to take 10-20 years before the EU catches up. Another point would be that with the US being one country and the EU being several this could be good and bad areas for both sides, such as the US having to produce it's own everything and using it's resources compared to the EU spreading out the production among each country and on the other side of this would be that the EU being made up of several countries has a greater chance for chaos amongst the Union and with the US it's one country and what is will be.

I would really like to see the US and EU make this a better world for us all and if they continue to work together I think the world will be a better place in the long run.

Lee, you're one of the worst debaters I've ever seen on a forum. All you do is attack people if they don't agree with you or if they make a mistake. You need to argue with their arguments, not the person.

LeeRyder said:

After that apollo, do not expect a further reply from me. your post was not only rude, but disrespectful, unlike everything I've ever been to you.

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HAHAHA! All you do is attack people. He only got frustrated with you because you were being ignorant and annoying. Try using an argument to convince the other person why your views are right, not why theirs is wrong.

If edited within 3 minutes, a post will not show an 'Edited by' tag. I do not know if that post was edited or not, though I can confirm it was not edited by a moderator.

hmmm . Well this has got out of hand. I have seen Lees posts time and time again and I cant say I agree with him on some issues but he always makes his case. It seems like most members just get mad when he gets the upperhand


Keep it up Lee. Without members like you there would be to many 1 sided conversations...lol






opps I had to edit my post...lmfao :blink:

Hi Tycoon,
I feel that you have made some VERY valid points in that last post.

1. US is one country and it CAN be self suffiecient. However, IMO the US is not using it resources effectively. The same goes for the EU of course, however the major difference that I see (which can as you said, be taken as a good thing, or a bad thing) is that the EU is comprised of 25 member countries, as you know, when countries trade amongst each other, all of the trading economies become more efficient. The only problem is perhaps the problem of co-operation, which, even though I am pro EU I know that problems exist in that area (see EU constitution)

Your last point IMO was the most valid and important one, the issue of co-operation between the EU and the US, I am sure that if both trading spheres come together, it could make a huge positive impace on the world. However, because of obvious differences in opinion this will not happen in the forseeable future.

"valid argument after you have <b>gotten an education and</b> formed a good opinion based on an analysis and not just your own <b>lies<b> and an odd bit of information."

I am not sure if Lee imagined that I had said that or if he is just making it up, however I am hoping that people will see that the words in bold were not mine (for one, I have never in my whole life said "gotten"), the sentence makes perfect sense without the highlighted words.
I am sorry for having made some inflamitory remarks towards the beginning of the thread, however they were not anywhere near this extent.
IMO, Lee that was out of order. I deliberatly wrote the word "discussion" in capitals because that is what this thread was meant to be, a discussion is an exchange of opinion, you do not have to see things from another persons point of view, it is only your choice to do so, in doing so please remember that you should respect other peoples opinions at all times.

To be honest, it really looks to me as though Lee has tried to make me seem worse than I am, those words were certainly not mine.

DN Tycoon and Zeeble know how to debate. :bingo: